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Old 01-26-2007, 02:44 AM   #1
Karrionhardt
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Default Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

It seems some of you are rather disappointed with the lackluster way in which SiN has, realistically, been abandoned. The interview at this point we all have probably read makes the situation quite clear: any continuation of the SiN series ranks somewhere between the release of Duke Nukem Forever and World Peace.

If we wish to continue (or rather conclude) the SiN storyline, and would prefer to play the aformentioned in a manner not concerned with blocks, magical gemstones, or jewels, I think it is fair to say we're probably left to fend for ourselves.

And I do very much mean ourselves. We're all members of the Ritualistic forums, and the odds are pretty good, I'd say, that SiN or it's derivatives are the reason many of us are here. But if any of us are serious in our passion and commitment to see ANY kind of closure, we're not going to get anywhere by standing around waiting for everyone else to make progress.

And it is also worth noting, I think, that if any kind of attempt at resuscitation were to begin somewhere, it would start on these forums, because I'm pretty most everyone who cares at all is already here.

Even assuming we manage to try, manage to start something - there's absolutely no assurance anything would come of it. I'm sure I don't need to tell anyone that the Information Superhighway is lined with the dead husks of failed modifications that have come before us.

But if something were to happen, it would start here, and it would probably need to start pretty damned quick. I do not believe it is at all presumptuous to imagine that in no large amount of time Ritual will likely cease to exist, consumed by MumboJumbo in it's entirety. And in that event, there would certainly be no need to continue the existance of these forums.

Maybe something will come of this, maybe nothing. I certainly accept the possibility that this thread will just sit here gathering dust. But this is certainly a question worth asking:

Are you interested?

This thread is just to ascertain interest in this community about doing /something/. It doesn't matter if you can't code, can't write, haven't beaten the games on all difficulties, didn't lose a relationship/job over them, or whatever. Remember: if a thousand monkeys typed on a thousand typewritters for a thousand years, one of them would type the works of Shakespeare.

So how many monkeys do we have on this forum?
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Old 01-26-2007, 03:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

I'm a monkey with a typewriter.

Actually, the one thing I am really interested in is continuing the story. I don't have excellent mapping skills (but I have some basic knowledge), or skill in animation, but I can help flesh out the story. I love writing and have always been interested in writing stories for games.

I already started a thread in the editing forum where I discussed a little about what needs to be thought about for Episode 2. Here's a quote from that thread:

Quote:
The first thing that needs to be done is the planning and story. Let's use this topic to brainstorm some ideas for Episode 2.

At the end of Episode 1:

Radek is dead (or is he? We could possibly bring him back by saying he wasn't in the helicopter if we wanted to).

Jessica is injected with mutagen (although, it may not have been. Remember, Blade was injected with a blue substance and jessica with green).

Also, at the beginning of the episode, Elexis says, "I don't want him DEAD. I have much bigger plans for him... I'll be back when it has taken affect."

We still don't know WHAT her plan was. Or if it even has taken affect yet in episode 1. We do know that Blade can use Mutagen to heighten his sense (via slow-mo), but is that ALL? Or is there something more to come for Blade? It would be cool if in Episode 2 he started gaining even more power. Perhaps Elexis is trying to be able to control him like a pet. Notice that she wears a blue vial on her neck. Perhaps it is the same substance she shot into Blade.

For Episode 2, we would need to discuss what else happens to Blade, what happens to Jessica, what else Elexis has in store for Blade as well as the rest of the world (for her pursuit of domination), etc. Let's think it out.

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Old 01-26-2007, 03:18 AM   #3
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

Yes, I agree entirely. The reason this feels so unresolved is because it wasn't just a mindless shooter, though it was pretty close at times. There was actually a story there and I'm just as curious to finish it as you are. You hit it on the head.

Oh yes, I saw your thread. But I figured this would be broader, as your thread focused on where the story would go, whereas this thread is just dipping the toes in the water to see how many people would actually go for trying something - even if they don't feel up to molding the future story of the SiN universe. Didn't mean to give the wrong idea.

Regarding the quite excellent points you bring up, I'm still pondering my own response. I should have something by tommorow.
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Old 01-26-2007, 03:25 AM   #4
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

The thing about making this mod that makes it easier than most other mods is that we don't have to make a huge ass game all at once. And who's to say how long each episode has to be? What if we made each subsequent episode a single map? Not that it has to be done that way, but it is an option.

I highly recommend checking out an episodic Deus Ex mod (ironically which also was dumped after their first and only episode) called The Cassandra Project. That's what my expectations are for a mod for Sin Episodes.

To expand on what I said earlier about making each Episode a single map. Look at Half Life 2: Lost Coast. That furthers the story of Half-Life 2, yet took a lot of work to create. Also, the great Minerva mod comes to mind. It's a viable option, I think, and would make it easier for the mod team to pump out episodes more frequently.

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Old 01-26-2007, 05:28 AM   #5
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

that'd be great, tiny monkey not that much avaible there, knowing how to code, but without knowledge in the source/sin:episode SDK, with not much map making knoledge... (only 1 really finished multiplayer map for XIII for the nes competition, it was not bad in my opinion, but i did't win )
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Old 01-26-2007, 03:24 PM   #6
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

Okay. Even if we were somehow able to produce an Episode 2, I don't think even this community would have enough drive and energy to produce more. We've all got lives to lead.

So I suppose I have to ask - can we wrap it up in one mod?
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Old 01-26-2007, 03:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

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Originally Posted by Karrionhardt View Post
Okay. Even if we were somehow able to produce an Episode 2, I don't think even this community would have enough drive and energy to produce more. We've all got lives to lead.

So I suppose I have to ask - can we wrap it up in one mod?
I have to agree with you, life does goes on and there are other great games out there such as Half-Life 2 Episodes two and three or possibly four.

But, I will say yes wrap it up in one mod and call it a day.
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Old 01-26-2007, 06:23 PM   #8
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

I'd help. Though I would be more happy having multiplayer than finishing the story.
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Old 01-26-2007, 07:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

To be blunt, is it really worth continuing? I mean even taking into account Sin Ep 1 was supposedly 1/9th of the story, it's still a mess.

First, the game barely qualifies as a sequel to Sin. Apart from the characters carrying over there are no connections. There's no acknowledgement of the events of Sin. How did Elexis and Sintek come back and assume power again, seemingly legally; presumably there was a very large body of evidence against her left from the events of Sin.

So if they're pratically starting fresh anyway, why didn't they just cut all connections to Sin and completey reinvent the series, introducing all the characters properly - which leads into the next big problem.

There's no introduction to any of the characters, not even those completely new to the Sin universe! Who the hell is Radek, how did he hook up with Elexis, what are his motives? Who is Jessica Cannon, how does she become a cop, how does she become Blade's partner (a man who presumably doesn't deal with field parnters)?

Really, the game needs beginning just as much as it needs an ending. If someone is going to a Sin mod I'd much rather see some do a complete reboot the series, possibly weaving in elements from Sin and Ep 1, instead of trying to cap off the tiny fraction of a plot Ep 1 acutally has.
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Old 01-28-2007, 05:27 AM   #10
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

I'm a decent mapper... If that helps at all. What should the first level be? You're in HardCorps... everything is relatively good, except for the mutants of course, but you're relatively safe... Until the power goes out, ah hell. And for some reason with the power out and your backup generator not working the HardCorp defenses are compromised. So you strap up and head out into the mutant infested city to get the power-station in your area back up and running.

I know the 'get the power back' fps scenario is way too overused... but IMAGINE THIS!!1 They power station didn't eff up due to Mutants or an electrical problem. OHHH no! It's Radek and when you get to the power place you realize 'It's a Trap!' OMG so then you get to Quote: "finish things" with Radek.

Last edited by PrivateNewbie : 01-28-2007 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 01-28-2007, 12:25 PM   #11
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

Actually, starting the game in HQ is a good idea.

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Old 01-28-2007, 06:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

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Originally Posted by Onden View Post
First, the game barely qualifies as a sequel to Sin. Apart from the characters carrying over there are no connections. There's no acknowledgement of the events of Sin. How did Elexis and Sintek come back and assume power again, seemingly legally; presumably there was a very large body of evidence against her left from the events of Sin.

Really, the game needs beginning just as much as it needs an ending. If someone is going to a Sin mod I'd much rather see some do a complete reboot the series, possibly weaving in elements from Sin and Ep 1, instead of trying to cap off the tiny fraction of a plot Ep 1 acutally has.
I'm of the exact same opinion about the plot and how it didn't introduce/explain the reinitiation of SinTEK and the characters. However, Sin 1 was a fine game which had the story laid out perfectly; it even had a prologue to it (Blade's Journal) that explained how SinTEK came into existence, and the LegionPharma website added to it. Sin 1 simply ended with everything open, and the task of "Sin 2" should be to continue where Sin 1 left off. I for one have always imagined a surprise visit from Elexis in Sin 2, like there's mystery going on and Blade finds out that Elexis reappeared without warning, and how she has brought some allies (like Radek) with her to make sure her second plan works out. Emergence didn't do enough to explain her return and her alliance, nor did it explain Jessica's history.

What I'm trying to say is that rewriting the story is a valid idea, but I wouldn't completely restart the whole franchise. Sin 1 has the most right to be here and it would be a shame to "ignore" the universe established with it. If anything should be rewritten, that would have to be Sin 2 (as in Sin Episodes) in my opinion. And if this doesn't work out either, at least there should be a kind of prologue to Emergence that explains all the things we were never told before.

About modding or making a game; I've tried this before and failed; however the biggest reason was that I didn't have enough talented people in the team. With the talents that are needed, it could be done and maybe a "wrapping it up in one mod" game could indeed be called "Sin 2" (rewriting Sin Episodes). If a project was started, I'd volunteer for mapping and audio design.

Another thought; how would you recruit the voice talent for this mod?
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Old 01-29-2007, 12:11 AM   #13
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

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However, Sin 1 was a fine game which had the story laid out perfectly; it even had a prologue to it (Blade's Journal) that explained how SinTEK came into existence, and the LegionPharma website added to it.
I used to think Sin 1 was ok too, but I just played through it the other week and even accounting for time I don't think it was ever a good game, gameplay-wise especially, but also story wise now.

A manual is way too passive a means to introduce that stuff. If I were to remake Sin, everything you'd need to know about the universe would be presented in game. I think Blade and Elexis having a "history" is weak. It'd be so much more powerful of an introduction if the player learned about Elexis during the course of the game. Same thing for JC, it would be better if the relationship between JC and Blade was developed throughout the game.

There area a few other big changes I would make. Like the zombie cyborgs, they need to go. They're Strogg rip-offs, make little sense in the Sin universe, and Elexis wants both mutants and zombie cyborgs? Nah, too silly and over the top even for Sin.

There are way better games than Sin 1 that could be made using the basic outline of it's story, but changing a lot of the details. That's why I think it would be more worthwhile to just reboot the whole thing. That being, honestly, I just think we should let it die. There are better things out there that I'd like to see talented modders work on rather than trying to continue Sin.
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Old 01-29-2007, 01:10 AM   #14
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

go read my post over in Episode 2, canned forum.
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Old 01-29-2007, 11:43 AM   #15
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

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That being, honestly, I just think we should let it die. There are better things out there that I'd like to see talented modders work on rather than trying to continue Sin.
Then you are much less of a Sin fan than some others of us here. It might just be a game, but to some fans it does have a lot more meaning than other "great" games, no matter how great they might be. Matter of taste, eh?

That's saying, people who really love Sin will work on a Sin mod (if they will). Other modders do other stuff.
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Old 01-30-2007, 06:59 AM   #16
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

It occurs to me that the first step is not to fine-tune elements of story, or fiddle with character developments.

The first step is to get out of these forums. If we spend too much time here discussing this subject, it won't matter if the entire Ritual dev team is rooting for us - because MumboJumbo /will/ eventually step in. Even if they didn't want to, even if they have no plans to ever use the franchise - they will have to, because this will qualify as unsanctioned use of their intellectual copyright, and it sets a legal precedent. That is to say, if they officially sanctioned this use, they would have no grounds to defend any future use of the intellectual property. They don't want that, we don't want that, so let's just move it along, people. I can gurantee a C and D will put an end to this, so let's not take the chance.
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Old 01-30-2007, 07:52 AM   #17
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

What are you talking about? We obviously wouldn't call it "SiN 2" and we'd be modding the SiN Episodes game. What Property Rights are we stealing? We're not doing a SiN game on Doom 3 - we're doing it on SiN Episodes... If you're trying to say now that Ritual is gone that no one can make a level in SiN Episodes anymore, then you need to stay off whatever substance you're on.

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Old 01-30-2007, 09:02 AM   #18
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

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...The first step is to get out of these forums.
I agree but not due to IP. I think Ertertwert is right - mapping and modding using Sin Episodes is fine as long as we don't make money from it and it is on top of Sin Episodes.

But I do think if you're serious about modding, you need to setup a proper project web site and get things organized.

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Old 01-30-2007, 05:56 PM   #19
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

I agree, but I don't think just yet. I'd really like to have the community discuss it a bit more before we start in full force. Also, I think we should start small and just focus on making a single map, such as HardCORPS Headquarters. Instead of doing a mod that waits until everything is completed and then releasing it, I think it would be beneficial to just have multiple iterations of the mod updated as new maps are completed.

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Old 01-31-2007, 08:35 AM   #20
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

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I agree, but I don't think just yet. I'd really like to have the community discuss it a bit more before we start in full force. Also, I think we should start small and just focus on making a single map, such as HardCORPS Headquarters. Instead of doing a mod that waits until everything is completed and then releasing it, I think it would be beneficial to just have multiple iterations of the mod updated as new maps are completed.
totally agreeing, now i'dd like to know if someone has some project managment knowledge before we'll start in a disoriented way...
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Old 01-31-2007, 09:22 AM   #21
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

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Also, I think we should start small and just focus on making a single map, such as HardCORPS Headquarters. Instead of doing a mod that waits until everything is completed and then releasing it, I think it would be beneficial to just have multiple iterations of the mod updated as new maps are completed.
Agreed. And I think HardCORPS would be a good place to start. I can see a scene with the JC and the med staff working on Jessica. Then the lights dim and all hell breaks loose.

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totally agreeing, now i'dd like to know if someone has some project managment knowledge before we'll start in a disoriented way...
Professionally, yes. But not in gaming. I've been in software for several *cough* years. It would be better if you had someone with some mod experience, IMHO.
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Old 02-03-2007, 05:08 PM   #22
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

Perhaps in the first map, Blade should die in a fight with a minor character called 'Mumbo Jimbo'. Blade gets hit with a shrink ray, or something, called 'the Downsizer'... and then stepped on.

Nah. I kid. I met a couple of the guys from Mumbo Jumbo. They seem like a good bunch of people. I'm sure that Sin will come back, eventually. And I'm looking forward to see what the Ritual guys come up with in the meantime, working in their new environment.

However, I do think it would be a great idea to have the community expand the Sin universe... carry the torch... keep the flame alive. I would love to help. I've been dying to try my hand at voice acting for Blade for some time now. If possible, I would even like to help put together a 'trash talking' engine, where Blade spews randomly generated comments depending on situational intensity.

Also, since it's not a commercial game, and we don't have the ESRB looking over our shoulders, I suggest we kick up the 'rating level' a couple notches. One of the appeals of the original SiN was it's adult themes. They seemed to have dumbed this down for Episodes, removing nipples from in-game textures and such. Let's bring back the nipples, throw in some foul language and go over the top with the blood and violence. Make the shooter that REALLY needs to be made. I'm talking adrenaline intensity, no holds barred, over the top ultraviolence with just a touch of porn thrown in for good measure.

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Old 02-03-2007, 05:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: Friends, Romans, Countrymen - Lend Me Your Ears.

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Perhaps in the first map, Blade should die in a fight with a minor character called 'Mumbo Jimbo'. Blade gets hit with a shrink ray, or something, called 'the Downsizer'... and then stepped on.

Nah. I kid. I met a couple of the guys from Mumbo Jumbo. They seem like a good bunch of people. I'm sure that Sin will come back, eventually. And I'm looking forward to see what the Ritual guys come up with in the meantime, working in their new environment.

However, I do think it would be a great idea to have the community expand the Sin universe... carry the torch... keep the flame alive. I would love to help. I've been dying to try my hand at voice acting for Blade for some time now. If possible, I would even like to help put together a 'trash talking' engine, where Blade spews randomly generated comments depending on situational intensity.

Also, since it's not a commercial game, and we don't have the ESRB looking over our shoulders, I suggest we kick up the 'rating level' a couple notches. One of the appeals of the original SiN was it's adult themes. They seemed to have dumbed this down for Episodes, removing nipples from in-game textures and such. Let's bring back the nipples, throw in some foul language and go over the top with the blood and violence. Make the shooter that REALLY needs to be made. I'm talking adrenaline intensity, no holds barred, over the top ultraviolence with just a touch of porn thrown in for good measure.
To test your metal why not mod those great features into episode 1 as a mod. People could learn how to do things via making that mod and use that experience in making the sequel, er mod.
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